The Validation Lounge, All Parts Are Welcome with Sasha Jenkin
Sasha Jenkin, Internal Family Systems Therapist, discusses various themes in the self help, psychology and therapy arena through an Internal Family Systems lens. She is joined by fellow IFS practitioners and advocates.
If you would like to be in touch with Sasha please email her at contact@sashajenkin.com
The Validation Lounge, All Parts Are Welcome with Sasha Jenkin
The Validation Lounge, All Parts Are Welcome, Episode 17 on The Mother Wound with Artemis Samartzi
In this episode I am joined by Artemis Samartzi IFS Level 3 trained practitioner and we discuss The Mother Wound through an IFS Lens.
Artemis is a holistic practitioner with over 10 years of experience, grounded in meditation, non-duality, and body based healing. Trained in IFS (Level 3), IFIO, and Somatic Psychotherapy, she gently guides individuals, couples, and groups in Self-discovery through reclaiming all parts of themselves. Her work lives at the intersection of spirituality, ancestral and cultural legacy, and attachment. With deep reverence for nature, ancient wisdom, and animistic traditions, she invites a return to inner resources—the wellspring of love, guidance, and healing within—as well as a return to community and interconnectedness around us. Rooted in her own ongoing journey, her relational and intuitive approach fosters authenticity, connection, and a felt sense of belonging.
Artemis will be facilitating IFS therapy groups for those interested in exploring their mother wounds. Please email her on ifsinpresence@gmail.com for more info.
https://ifs-institute.com/practitioners/all/118021
https://ifs-institute.com/resources/research/ifs-glossary-terms
The above link is a glossary of common terms used in Internal Family Systems Therapy from the IFS Institute.
More info on my fabulous guests can be found on the podcast website:
https://thevalidationloungeallpartsarewelcome.buzzsprout.com
Sasha Jenkin website for any feedback please:
https://sashajenkin.com/
I'm Sasha Jenkin. I've always been really fascinated by people and what makes them tick and I've been lucky enough to pursue this interest in my work as a therapist for over 20 years. In 2019 I discovered internal family systems therapy which has been life-changing for me both personally and professionally. In this podcast I'll be chatting to other internal family systems therapy colleagues and practitioners about how this model has impacted them and then in each episode we will also focus on a particular piece of psychology Welcome to the Validation Lounge. Today I have with me, I'm very lucky to have with me Artemis Sarmadzi. I hope I've pronounced that correctly. Artemis is an IFS Level 3 practitioner and we met recently on our... our Level 3 training with C-Sykes. And Artemis is very interested in the mother wound. And she and her colleague will be doing a work, running a group therapy, an IFS group therapy offering around this, for which I'll put the information on the podcast notes. But anyway, welcome, Artemis. If you'd like to just perhaps say a little bit about where you are, what's led you to get into where you're, you know, to this. Work on the mother wound, maybe. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you, Sasa. And thank you for having me. My sister really enjoys the opportunity to kind of create and play together. Yeah. And yeah, I'm coming from Greece, but I'm residing in Turkey right now. And Yeah, let's call it motherhood for now. It's a topic that really touches me. There's something around my personal story, so there is a passion in my system for working with this kind of primary attachment wounding, let's call it. And also with the cultural and legacy aspect of it as well.
SPEAKER_01:And a question I ask everybody is, what was it about IFS that felt really right for you? Is there anything in particular you could say? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think a lot of things are coming to my mind. I think the one that really stands out for me is this opportunity of connection building, really, internally and externally, and how I would... I will quote Gabor Mate here, speaking about trauma being pain in isolation. I find that IFS is all about relieving this isolation and understanding that there is an inner resource that can be here as the space to hold the inner experience and also this inner resource. is everyone and everything really in the world. It's also this transpersonal kind of aspect of it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great. Thank you. Okay, so it would be helpful, I think, to have a definition of what the mother wound actually is.
SPEAKER_00:yeah so first of all in my perspective the mother wound is an attachment wound it's happening um in between us as babies or children with our very very first uh caregiver parental figure um And if I try to kind of give a definition, I would say that it's the internalized pain and all the emotional charge that is passed down from this relationship with the mother, from what was, from what wasn't, unmet needs. neglect. And on top of that, the beliefs, the meaning we've made around ourselves, others, life, the world, based on those experiences. And I would even include the protective strategies and roles That came at play.
SPEAKER_01:I had Kate McKenzie was on one of my podcasts, and she works with attachment. And she was saying that the latest kind of theory is that our primary caregiver, the mother isn't the only one that we can receive that attunement and nurturing from. It can be obviously a father. It can be someone else. someone an important person it can even be a pet so i guess it's probably worth sort of naming that the term the mother wound is quite you know it could almost be like it doesn't necessarily be isn't just necessarily around the mother and and families are all different you know like there's a kind of an old-fashionedness about it isn't there like
SPEAKER_00:it is it is and To my perspective, I hold, when I say motherhood, I hold more this archetypical aspect of the mother. So any kind of a primal caregiver in that position. And I think that distinction is very important to be made, but something around the kind of very first attachment Yes, yeah, yes.
SPEAKER_01:Because, of course, it's obvious, and I should have said before, some children won't have a mother, even if they have two parents. They might not have someone that is defined as a mother in the traditional terms, but that doesn't matter. What did you say, a primordial? Primal
SPEAKER_00:caregiver. Yeah, yeah,
SPEAKER_01:yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Primary caregiver, yeah. primary caregiver and also this kind of mother as an archetype here so a representative of this kind of first relationship first attachment
SPEAKER_01:yes first attachment yeah so maybe that's leading on into how we might describe it through an IFS lens
SPEAKER_00:yeah does
SPEAKER_01:that feel possible so there's Yeah, that would
SPEAKER_00:be helpful. Yeah, let's try that. So my sense is that this kind of wounding impacts the whole system. And maybe we are working with several, more than one part together, and we bring that up. But what I tend to notice is that more of the learned behaviors, the protective roles, the strategies are held by protectors. For example, parts that learn to people-please or be kind of over-independent, not being able to trust others for help. And the energetic imprints, the pain, if you wish, from that are mostly held by our exiles.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Like I'm not lovable. I'm not enough. I'm too much. Same loneliness. And the list goes on.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Would you say that there are some kind of more typical protective behaviors, not just behaviors, protector types that come with having the mother wound?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I would say there is something around maybe criticism, so kind of harsh inner critics. that at times might even, you know, appear to have the voice or the image of the actual mother. And then I would definitely add the people-pleasing aspect into the list.
SPEAKER_01:So like fawning, do you think?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, or, you know, kind of... prioritizing everyone else and putting kind of sacrificing one's own needs and desires just to keep the peace and everyone happy
SPEAKER_01:yeah yeah and as you were talking I was thinking about how there could be I mean I think this is probably the case often with all exiles but there could be more vulnerable ones that maybe have these this internalized pain of unmet needs and neglect and loneliness but that could also that could really be like from many different developmental ages like even from being in the womb like that kind of sort of knowing that our exiles our vulnerable ones have you know that's just how it is and that how that can be that can manifest differently according to the developmental age does that make sense
SPEAKER_00:yeah so that makes total sense and thank you for bringing that up i think i'm hearing that um you know the this pain there those exiles can be um in different stages of the development and maybe, you know, even very early on in the womb or in pre-verbal stages.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah,
SPEAKER_00:definitely.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, as we were talking about it, I can really feel like the sadness, you know, but also, I mean, the sadness that comes with it, but I think, I guess there's also probably shame in there as well. Yeah. I'm not sure if that's something that comes up to you. Yeah, yeah. I
SPEAKER_00:would say same is one of the kind of core emotions there. Yeah. For those little ones. I would say same and loneliness. Yeah, yeah. And, of course, the sadness and... I think it's really, really important to understand that when we're working with that kind of attachment wounds, we're also working with grief. Yes. The importance of honoring that grief there of what was and what wasn't.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. The grief of what we had and what we didn't have.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. Growing up. and being really affirming on the fact that there is a lost chance there. This kind of childhood is in the past now. So maybe we can work with the present and the future and we can offer what wasn't available back then, but that is not exactly changing the past.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. There
SPEAKER_00:has
SPEAKER_01:to be like an acceptance somehow, which might be very difficult, but an acceptance that that is how it was, it was how it was, and that's never going to change.
SPEAKER_00:That's exactly right. Many of our parts in my experience find that very hard.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yeah. Well, I guess the irony of it is, asking our system to be with some really little ones in a way that we haven't experienced. So we know with the model that what can be helpful is if we can actually be with these parts that carry these kind of deep wounds, if our protectors will allow us, of course, and we don't want to rush them in any way. But we haven't actually been given the tools yet you know, as we've grown up to do that.
SPEAKER_00:So it's
SPEAKER_01:a bit of a, I don't know if it's a misnomer or like it makes sense to me that there would be so many protectors that would step in to stop us from doing that because it could feel just going there. It could be like life or death. For example, the really little ones when we're really little and we're powerless. Does
SPEAKER_00:that make sense? Yeah, it makes total sense. Yeah, I think it's this paradox that you mentioned around... Paradox, that's a good word, yeah. Yeah, around being called to offer something you didn't really receive as a child. And to my experience, there is something around... the trust that needs to be built there. Because somehow all those protectors, but also the exiles, they're kind of are called to make this leap of faith in a way. They don't really know self-energy. They don't really know what's available. So this trust needs to be built. In my experience, it's more of an experiential process. So self-energy is not something that we can or we should kind of preach our parts around and get them to mentally understand. Yes. But it's a thing they can feel. They can know experientially.
UNKNOWN:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:So my sense is that as we slowly and gently are opening up in the present moment to all those emotions, either held by protectors or exiles, the justified grief, the anger, rage, outrage that can be there.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:We actually give them an opportunity to experience that self-energy. maybe gradually start trusting in that. And on top of that, I want to mention the importance of the relational aspect in this kind of work. Because I can speak for my system and this three-year-old that just keeps saying to me, Yeah, it's great that we have this inner resource, but what about the external world? So somehow I find it very important to be able to actually give an opportunity to our system to receive that kind of nurturance from the external world as well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's nothing wrong with that.
SPEAKER_00:It's actually a very natural aspect of being a human. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It's making me think about the original title of my podcast and around validation, you know, how we can want it so much from others. But actually what you're just saying that is making me realize that there's nothing wrong with that. You know, it's like, it's almost perhaps that there's something that's written into our culture around self-help, which is you're only going to be like, you're only okay when you can offer validation to yourself. You know, I mean, and, and actually, that can be, as you say, an impossibility for some little ones if they didn't learn how to kind of know what self is, who they are from the modeling and the care. If they didn't receive that from their primary caregiver, that kind of whole attachment piece of how that becomes something that you kind of form yourself through, what you receive.
SPEAKER_00:And
SPEAKER_01:yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And to me, Sasa, to my understanding, self-energy is there as an inner resource, whether we received nurturance and whether we had a mature self,
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so if you wanted to talk about validation, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I heard you speaking about the title of the podcast, The Validation Lounge, and something around it's okay for us to need external validation. And that brought to my mind, you know, this kind of layer of validation collective burden of individualism and how in our culture and kind of western world we're so much programmed and oriented to kind of get it all right and have it all together on our own and naming that what also comes to my mind is the you know looking to the mother wound through a through a cultural, a legacy kind of lens. In a sense that we are a system within a system within a system. So we are influenced by the collective burdens of individualism, of patriarchy. We need to name the expectations of society for mothers to be everything for a child in a world that rather neglects them rather than supports them in this role, the role of the mother.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And then what comes to mind is also the primordial mother, if you wish, the mother earth and, you know, how we exploit instead of series and nurture.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely, yeah. And how that, for me, when I think about that, that brings up a lot of grief as well. Yeah. But what you were saying about the burden of, I mean... I think there's so much hidden around being a mother. It's something that's not talked about. Like even that I noticed being a mother myself, I noticed that I don't want to, I think that can often, myself included, we can have protectors that are wanting to be like, I'm doing okay. My child's okay. You know, it feels it's less so now but it feels hard it feels like shaming to say oh you know I think I may be really screwed up as a mother around this issue you know and I think because it's not talked about in my experiences it sort of gets that it gets more and more exiled you know because no one like the times when I have had wonderful friends when I have been able to talk about it with other mother friends it's Everyone's like, yeah, and me, and me. You know, like, we don't always get it right. And everyone's just doing the best they can. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever experience they've had, you know. I
SPEAKER_00:find it really, really important to mention that. Yeah. And something around, you know, the... The silence and the same that comes together with those high expectations of how you should be as a mother.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And hearing you speaking about, you know, this community around you that you could sit and speak on what went well and what didn't went well while mothering. brings up to my mind this statement like, I am not alone and I am not the only one.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And it's so, so important for our parts and it's one of the gifts of the community, really. Yes. We leave this isolation.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, as you say that, I can feel that I have... I can feel... Like more and more, I think of things being like on a spectrum. So like on one end, there are parts of me that can feel like, you know, maybe really particularly with other mothers, like real shame, like we're not talking about this. Everyone else is doing an amazing job as a mother and I'm the one that isn't, you know, I'm the only one that doesn't, how do I do this thing? I don't know. And then on the other end of the spectrum, it's like how wonderful it can be to be in a collective where that can be shared, you know, where my protectors can actually allow my exiles to be, you know, can come out a little bit and be safe, you know, to say, oh, I think I may have screwed up there. Oh, yeah, now someone else is saying, oh, well, you're human, you know, and I did the same thing. I've done it before. It's like, oh, wow. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:yeah and then that brings brings to my mind how important it was for my system the being able to speak for my parts actually you know speak on behalf of them and allow them expression of what they feel, what they need, what they want. And somehow, I think sometimes this is lost in some IFS circles. It might become all around us sitting with our own inner experience and our parts. But I think this... There is an importance of speaking for our parts in the external world and the inside work is not enough. And somehow to me, to my perspective, when we have this internal holding and this courageous communication, then our parts can really have this repairing experience of receiving what they didn't get. Yes. Because all along it was a lot around your needs are not important, you don't have a voice, isn't it? Mm-hmm. Something
SPEAKER_01:around
SPEAKER_00:offering that as well.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, and being seen and heard.
SPEAKER_00:And being seen and heard and making it inclusive. The external world is interweaved in that. It's not all inside here. Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:so we have kind of touched a little bit, I think, perhaps around the healing of the community and the collective. And I wonder if there's anything specifically that you maybe think that our parts could find helpful in the healing process. healing mother wound
SPEAKER_00:I think the most important thing to start with is this connection building internally so that to use attachment terms that inner secure attachment we didn't have back then we can have it now internally between self and parts. So it's about creating this trust and this kind of self to part relationship as a base to start with.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And I think that's the first layer of reliving the isolation because all those parts Exiles holding the pain and protectors working so hard to kind of protect us. Also, I wanted to name our beautiful firefighters as well that, you know, they will try to soothe or numb us in different ways. All those parts, they think they're all alone. so there's something really important about them experiencing that there is an inner resource and that maybe I was all alone back then but I'm not right now right now I am here with you self is here as well present um And then I think it's the witnessing is a very important aspect, you know, around all these stories that our parts are holding of what happened, but also the impact of all those stories. I just want to mention here that sometimes our parts will come very clearly with a a verbal narrative and we'll be able to share memories and show us images and being stuck in physical places in the past. But I really want to honor the pre-verbal, maybe very, very early in development parts that often cannot speak with words. Or, you know, do not even hold images and memories. Yeah. And I think the importance to honor those parts as well lies in our capacity to be with the body and the story that the body keeps. Yeah.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. Yeah, and really being able to hold them in this way and remembering that there is no right or wrong way. Parts are communicating with us through different portals.
SPEAKER_01:Do you have any kind of particular exercise that you would suggest for people that would like to develop a relationship? from self to their pre-verbal little ones in their body or not you might not I just thought yes I'd like that please
SPEAKER_00:yeah well I can say what works for me and what helped me and that would be to focus on the body as As you know, an inner aliveness, a felt sense, the sensations in the body. Mm-hmm. And first of all, bring presence in those sensations. And what I have found working for me better is the breath.
SPEAKER_01:Mm-hmm,
SPEAKER_00:yeah. Or physical touch, so kind of... Yeah. Putting a hand there in the heart space.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And allow the breath to reach there. And somehow just being with, really, the experience of the body.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. It's kind of actually, I think I have thinking therapist parts that kind of, not surprisingly, jump in. And when it's actually really very simple, like I think with seeing someone, because we met on the level three, of
SPEAKER_00:that
SPEAKER_01:kind of like we've shared this, we've been in this body together our whole lives, even from conception, you know, even... Like saying, even just noticing, that's me doing that to my parts. It's like really straightforward. Me speaking for them, I'm doing that for them. There's self in that. Like that kind of, does that make sense? That kind of just, yeah, that's me. That's us together. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And it's really helpful that you speak about the simplicity of it, being with yourself. Also the fellow sense in the body, being with the body, being with those little ones. And at the same time, I want to name that sometimes our protectors won't allow us to go there. Yes, absolutely, totally. And there will be their kind of gatekeepers and guardians.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, bless them.
SPEAKER_00:Until we can, yeah, build that trust. 100%. And that's also great. Another thing I wanted to mention around the healing process internally, I have found that, first of all, it's not a quick fix. It's mostly an ongoing relationship, a cultivation of trust in self-energy, in an inner resource that can reparent the whole system. And also this kind of being with all those parts that will show up and maybe even letting go of that, you know, therapeutic agenda of, okay, now I need to go to that exile and reach unburdening. Yeah. And then, you know, the change will come and the healing will come. And I think if we see those agendas, we can use it as a trailhead to, you know, therapist parts, maybe self-mirroring parts that really have good intentions. They want the healing. They want the progress. And at the same time, holding in mind that sometimes healing already occurs when our protectors Starting relaxing. Not being extreme anymore. Trusting. Self more.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And of course unburdening is great and powerful.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:When it happens. But it's not and shouldn't be the ultimate goal.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. As you've been talking, I've been aware of... how much again it's almost a cultural burden of we're going for this thing in the on the in the horizon you know get to this thing which is healing you know we're going to keep we're going to get there we're going to get there eventually but actually you know there can be so much energy in that which is also wonderful there's no criticism there but sometimes actually just being and that can be hard too but for example in the moment my my parts hearing my voice in that moment that's my voice speaking for them you know that's the connection of me with my little ones
SPEAKER_00:and
SPEAKER_01:breathing with them sharing the breath and how if you think about a mother with a small baby the attunement is really about like just looking in their eyes breathing together and just much more slow and in the here and now and not just that but also it's procedural isn't it it's like experiencing it over and over again that's help that can be beneficial yeah definitely I think we've been talking for a while. Is there anything that you feel that we haven't touched on that you'd like to before we finish?
SPEAKER_00:Primary caregiver wounding and how that influences our system. And I have found myself working with early attachment wound often working with a lot of polarizations. Yeah. And somehow I would like to give some examples of that. For example, this kind of yearning for connection versus self-reliance. I need to do everything on my own.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Or the need to be held and seen and loved. for who I am versus no one needs to be trusted
SPEAKER_01:yes
SPEAKER_00:the world is not safe or this need to be sure that everyone is happy so attending to everyone's needs versus my own needs so I have found working with polarizations and, of course, see Sykes come to mind and her wonderful triangle.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Somehow the parts that are seemingly polarized, many times they tend to protect the same exile underneath and how it's very powerful. when they're able to actually see through this work and understand that, oh, we're a team here, basically. We're not opponents. We are a team.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we're all working for the same cause.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. No, that sounds really helpful and makes a lot of sense. Well, thank you for that, Artemis. It was really... thought-provoking and feeling-provoking.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, thank you, Sus. I really enjoyed it, actually. Oh, great. Me too.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, thank you. Thank you for listening to The Validation Lounge. All parts are welcome. I'll attach to the podcast notes information for how to get in touch with my podcast guests and also their social media to see what they're up to. There's also a glossary of IFS terms from the IFS Institute. And please do rate and review podcasts if you can. And finally, if you'd like to get in touch with me to give me some feedback, I'd be really grateful. I'll also attach my personal website.
