The Validation Lounge, All Parts Are Welcome with Sasha Jenkin
Sasha Jenkin, Internal Family Systems Therapist, discusses various themes in the self help, psychology and therapy arena through an Internal Family Systems lens. She is joined by fellow IFS practitioners and advocates.
If you would like to be in touch with Sasha please email her at contact@sashajenkin.com
The Validation Lounge, All Parts Are Welcome with Sasha Jenkin
The Validation Lounge All Parts Are Welcome Episode 15 with Phil de la Haye on Self-led ally ship and activism
In this episode Phil de la Haye returns to talk with me about Self - led allyship and activism: how to support the trans community in challenging political times.
This podcast is longer than usual but the conversation needed some time to explore as fully as possible, and as always, through a parts lens. At the end I added a further section in response to the UK Supreme Court ruling that the definition of a woman should be based on biological sex which occurred after we did our original recording.
Phil de la Haye is a Certified IFS Therapist, Counsellor, and SIRPA Practitioner. He has a particular interest in the way that stress and trauma impact the nervous system, and how this can affect our physical body as well as our mental health.
As an openly transgender and queer clinician, Phil does a lot of work with queer and gender diverse clients. He is also a passionate advocate for the trans and LGBTQ+ community.
The Curiosity Cure podcast is the one that we refer to in our discussion - Phil appeared on that on 5 March 2025 - Ep 46.
Phils website:
https://ifs-institute.com/resources/research/ifs-glossary-terms
The above link is a glossary of common terms used in Internal Family Systems Therapy from the IFS Institute.
More info on my fabulous guests can be found on the podcast website:
https://thevalidationloungeallpartsarewelcome.buzzsprout.com
Sasha Jenkin website for any feedback please:
https://sashajenkin.com/
I'm Sasha Jenkin. I've always been really fascinated by people and what makes them tick, and I've been lucky enough to pursue this interest in my work as a therapist for over 20 years. In 2019, I discovered internal family systems therapy, which has been life-changing for me both personally and professionally. In this podcast, I'll be chatting to other internal family systems therapy colleagues and practitioners about how this model has impacted them. And then in each episode, we will also focus on a particular piece of psychology or self-help or therapy theory, and we'll look at this through an IFS lens. So why not join us in the Validation Lounge? What we bring will be personal reflections from our own experience. This doesn't mean that your parts will manifest in the same way as ours. However, I do hope these discussions will be thought-provoking and an interesting introduction to IFS, a setting where all parts are welcome. Welcome to the Validation Lounge, all parts are welcome. Today I have with me again Phil De La Haye, who's a Certified Level 3 Therapist. He was on one of my past podcast episodes talking about how parts somatize in chronic pain, which is a fantastic episode. I continue to get a lot of really good feedback about that. So I'm really grateful to have Phil back on. Phil got in touch with me after Trump came into power, asking if we could have a conversation on here about the impact on his system as a trans person. with what's been going on in America. Oh, I can feel it as I'm saying. I have parts of me activated with fear. And, you know, I'm not in a marginalized community at all. I'm a white, comfortably off woman. So, yes. So Phil was in touch and wanted to have a chat about how it's impacted on him personally. We're seeing it everywhere, seeing it on social media, seeing it in the news. It's being talked about how the rights of many marginalised people are being really seriously and catastrophically affected by Trump, including the trans community. So, yeah, it would be good to have a conversation about this. We're both being a bit activated as I introduce it here.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, just thank you so much. And thank you for, yeah, speaking for the activation you're noticing in your system because that helped me to tune into mine because I think I had some parts that are checking me out a little bit and other managers who were just wanting to like, you know, let's get this conversation and do it right. And yeah, really acknowledging the vulnerability and the tenderness and the fear that lies underneath some of that. It feels really helpful to name that. I'm really grateful to have this space to have what feels like such an important conversation, but also a really vulnerable conversation for me because I'm speaking from, you know, from that marginalized place and speaking from my system. Yeah. Yeah. So I'd like to just start by doing really, you know, doing a bit more of a social identity introduction because particularly in this context, that feels so important. And for my system, The invitation for social identity introductions is always really helpful, being able to name where I have privilege and where I don't have privilege and to give other people that sense of where I fall. So, yeah, so I'm Phil and my pronouns are he, him, although they, them pronouns are starting to feel increasingly fine for my system, which is quite interesting.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:that there's a move towards acknowledging perhaps that my identity is a little bit more non-binary than some parts were willing to admit earlier on in my transition. I'm white. I'm British. I'm middle class. I'm financially secure. I'm able-bodied. I inhabit a body that is kind of an average size. I'm educated. So those are all places where I have a lot of power and a lot of privilege. I also now am usually read as male when I'm out in the world, you know, just going about my day. So again, I have the privilege of that, that I'm usually read as male now rather than as female. But I am transgender and I'm queer and I'm neurodivergent. I have ADHD. So those are the places where I feel as if I have less privilege. And, you know, those are my... places where I feel marginalised. Thank you. Yeah, I'm... It's really interesting speaking for that and just noticing how it feels and noticing the vulnerability in speaking for both sides, actually. There's vulnerability in naming privilege as well as in naming where there isn't privilege, holding both.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Could you feel it as you were saying? Was there a difference in that?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's interesting. The... vulnerability yeah in both sides there's shame in naming privilege and then there's shame in naming marginalization sometimes too yeah yeah yeah just really yeah i guess i'm curious about that just noticing that feels like another whole trailhead
SPEAKER_01:yeah and shame shame is such a huge part of this i feel like I was recently in a consultation with Toni Herbine-Blank, and she was saying that she thinks that all therapy is about healing shame. And it was just, for me, that was like, whoa, we have so much of our experiences that are difficult and challenging come back to parts that feel shame and parts that shame us. And I was thinking about, before we had our chat, I was thinking about how I feel shame about... or I felt shamed by having quite a posh voice. I felt, you know, I was thinking about, because I think a lot of this is around how people other us in our differences, and I've had that. And then I've got a part like, oh, poor you. Poor you. You're, like, shaming me for even saying it. Like, you know, like... The amount of choice that I have, my privilege in the world, like I am very, you know, I'm very, very lucky. But what I realize is that people don't know what is going is that thing that people don't know what my life has been. They don't know. They can hear my voice and think and assume that my life's been good. And that's not necessarily the case. So anyway, that's a little bit of a. It's like a little diatribe from a young one there.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, just something about the assumptions that people make about us based on characteristics.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. And how much easier it is for us that are in a body that is more, what is in inverted commas, normal. I'm going off on a tangent, so I don't want to... We don't have to go down there, but I'm just thinking about what it... about what it is about someone othering us based on their difference and me acknowledging that I am a lot less likely to have that experience in the world because most of my parts of my identity are very much fit into what is acceptable.
SPEAKER_02:When you mentioned othering, that reminded me that there was one thing that I think my system wants me to share, which is checking with some parts around, you know, but... It feels like it's vulnerable, but it also feels like a really beautiful illustration of how that othering and some of that othering and shame is embedded in my system and shows up in the way that my parts communicate to me. Because a couple of nights ago, I had a dream, and it's a recurring dream that I often have, where I'm looking for a toilet to use. And I look like I do now. So I've got facial hair. I've got a beard. But in the dream, I'm wearing a skirt or a dress and I'm looking for a toilet to go into. And I go to use one of them, whichever gender toilet it is, and realize, oh, no, I can't. I can't go into the ladies because I've got a beard. And then I try to go to the men's and then I think, oh, no, but I can't go into the men's because I'm wearing a skirt. And the feeling that just then comes up in that dream is this kind of feeling of like panic and anxiety. I don't belong anywhere. I'm not safe anywhere. There's nowhere that I can go. And
SPEAKER_00:to
SPEAKER_02:me, that is the experience in my system for some of my parts around othering and around gender. And obviously now, fortunately for me, I can go into a men's toilet and nobody looks twice at me. But that wasn't true for me six or seven years ago.
SPEAKER_00:I
SPEAKER_02:had, you know, for a year or so, it was very difficult for me to feel safe using a public toilet.
SPEAKER_01:And does it feel like that experience of not being able to be anywhere or go anywhere safely, does that feel like there's shame there?
SPEAKER_02:yeah absolutely that feels very connected to that shame and and and and not belonging I think is the other really strong feeling around that is of like not belonging like there's no place for me I don't I don't fit anywhere there's nowhere that I'm welcome there's nowhere that I'm safe and that really then feels like yeah that experience of being other
SPEAKER_01:yeah other different other and and alone yeah I hope I'm not putting words into your mouth. Are you
SPEAKER_02:okay? Yeah, I am okay. Again, that felt like quite a vulnerable share to speak about that dream, but it also just feels like such a, to me, it feels like a really beautiful illustration and I'm really grateful to my parts for the way that they communicate with me in that way. They find ways of showing me what they're feeling and what they need.
SPEAKER_01:And I'm really grateful to them too. for daring to share thank you and there is that whole kind of the thing with shame I guess is although it has to feel really really safe and it might not be that you want to keep this on the podcast for that reason but if we can share our parts that feel shame that putting some light on them can help them to feel less ashamed hopefully but obviously that has to be in a safe you know it's not like oh you must talk about it but
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I appreciate the sensitivity with which you're framing that question. So I will just pause for a moment and just check and see what parts might want to be spoken for that hold shame. I mean, I have a sense that I have many parts who hold shame and some of that shame is directly related to my experience of gender and some of that shame is related to other experiences of rejection or being excluded. But it does feel really relevant to this conversation because those are the parts, even if those parts shame isn't directly connected to gender, those parts are still the ones who get harmed in situations where I feel othered or where I feel excluded. So it feels like there's maybe two primary exiled parts in my system who hold that. So there's a very little one, probably like a three-year-old who is just at that age of starting to understand that, we live in this world where there's a very binary understanding of what gender is yeah and this three-year-old having a sense of that's not right for me that doesn't fit like I've been put in the wrong category here and and really not understanding that really not understanding why I had to use that toilet and boys got to use a different one and why a I'm from an army family, so there would be like royal visitors occasionally to kind of army bases. And I remember at the age of three, they wanted to teach all of the boys to bow and all of the girls to curtsy. And I remember being very, very confused about why I had to learn to curtsy. and an angry little part. My angry advocate is also that age. That's where some of my really angry parts started then too, the unfairness of that. And I actually refused. It was like, I don't want to learn to curtsy. And so they did end up allowing me to learn to bow instead. But beneath that anger is that kind of shame and confusion of like, I don't fit, like what's wrong? There's these rules being sort of imposed on me and it doesn't feel right, but nobody understands that sense of not being understood. And there must be something wrong with me. There must be something wrong with me that I don't fit into this expectation. So that's the little one who holds discomfort around that and discomfort around some of the ways that I tried to express my gender as a really young child and was maybe told off or shamed or told that that wasn't acceptable. Yeah. And that's so
SPEAKER_01:little. That's three, so little. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02:kind of three, four years old. It feels like there were some early experiences of wanting to express my gender differently. I mean, the bowing and the curtsying being one where I was allowed to, but there were other places where maybe I wouldn't. I wouldn't be allowed to.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:how little, again, we think about power, how little power we have at that age and how much we're so... kind of dependent on the adults around us.
SPEAKER_00:And
SPEAKER_01:the ability to understand what's going on is so much more compromised at that age.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I just want to check how they're doing and if they need anything from us, that little one, that three-year-old, four-year-old.
SPEAKER_02:I feel as if that little one is very safely tucked away in my system at the moment and that I'm speaking for it rather than it's not really here with us now, that little one. Okay. And I guess some of my older parts who hold shame are the most significant is probably kind of like a 12-year-old part who holds a lot of shame around the experience of being bullied and excluded at boarding school. So I was sent to an all-girls boarding school, which, as you can imagine, for a child who'd been very gender non-conforming and most of my friends had been boys and boys I didn't know how to be a girl. Being put into that environment was, you know, really did not go well for me.
SPEAKER_00:And
SPEAKER_02:I guess not surprisingly, I was targeted because I was different and I didn't know how to fit in. And I didn't know, I didn't understand the rules of 12-year-old girls. And I was, yeah, so I was bullied, excluded, very, very lonely, very, very isolated. And there's a one there are many parts connected to that that hold different things and protectors that took on roles but there's definitely a part there that holds that shame around um not fitting in you know nobody likes me but I don't understand why like what have I done like I haven't done anything wrong so why am I being treated this way you know really confused like there must be something really badly wrong with me and I I don't know what it is I can't see it yeah I don't understand what
SPEAKER_01:I've done. It doesn't make
SPEAKER_02:sense.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So that combination of confusion and shame in my system feel very tied together with both of those experiences, one being around gender and the other one being around being excluded and ostracized and publicly like ostracized as well. There was a lot of kind of public humiliation around sitting alone. Again, that experience of being othered and isolated in a really kind of public shaming way. So
SPEAKER_00:that's
SPEAKER_02:really in my system too. And again, that 12-year-old part is one who can get very, very activated in situations where I feel ganged up on or excluded, either ganged up on or excluded. So either like a lot of negative attention being directed my way or people not seeing me, ignoring me, that part. can get very activated around that.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that makes sense, doesn't it? So much sense.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it makes so much sense. I mean, a huge amount of my own therapy, personal therapy, has been working with my parts around boarding school and around those experiences. That's probably been one of the central pieces of work that I keep coming back to over and over again, rescuing more parts who are stuck back there.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. the wonderful care you're taking of them and just to, you know, it's really, again, wonderful to have them here, you know, to be welcomed here. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02:I mean, for those parts, it's huge that I'm able to do this, that I'm able to use my voice in this way because some of those parts have, some of the protectors involved in those clusters have huge fear around being visible, like being visible is terrifying to those parts because if I'm visible... I might be a target. Yeah. And so that ties in again to, you know, then me being a transgender person,
SPEAKER_00:coming
SPEAKER_02:out and transitioning and being visible in my communities as a trans person. It feels very scary to those young parts where visibility was unsafe. And like, there's that fear of being targeted, fear of being attacked, fear of being bullied again.
SPEAKER_01:This literally could be, you know, life could be in danger if it's not just something that's uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, for sure. So it says a lot about, you know, the work that I've done in therapy and the support that I've had, that I am able to be visible, I am able to, those parts are willing
SPEAKER_01:to trust,
SPEAKER_02:to trust in me. Yeah. to
SPEAKER_01:do this. I had this real sense of just wanting to let them know that I really see them, you know, and then after, but then straight away is that, you know, we were, I just, my level three with two sites and one of the themes that came up was how we can have parts that really want to be seen, but also are terrified of being seen.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So kind of polarity perhaps, you know, be there for these ones.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, my parts who want to be seen are younger. My parts who want to be seen are those of my seven, eight year olds. Yeah. Who are like full of confidence and, you know, me, me, me. And, you know, those parts want to do cartwheels and show off. And it's the 11, 12 year old parts that just squash them down. Like that is not safe.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:okay and are they it sounds like they're all very well taken care of by you yeah I
SPEAKER_02:mean then I think they generally are you know that's the power of IFS and working and getting to really know these parts and connecting them to me and they have their safe spaces inside that they can go like a lot of my parts have been retrieved to this amazing you know magical beach house where I can just keep building extensions as I retrieve more and more of them there and They've got the sea and they've got rocks to climb on
SPEAKER_00:and
SPEAKER_02:they've got each other to play with. I think a lot of the time my parts hang out there when they trust me to be present.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, they really get that they can trust you and they can be safe with you. I
SPEAKER_02:think most of them do. Some of my more cognitive, thinky, analysing parts, those are the ones that find it the hardest to... to relax because those are the ones that ran the show
SPEAKER_00:pretty much all
SPEAKER_02:my life, actually. And there's also a 12-year-old, a 12-year-old who was trying to make sense of my experience, a 12-year-old who was like, if I can figure out either what's wrong with me or what's wrong with them or what's happening in this situation, if I can figure it out, then I can make it stop, then I can fix it. I can understand it, yeah, yeah. So that part was one who was very, very blended for a long time. And that part still, sometimes even now when I'm having a session with my therapist, sometimes that part, you know, won't really give me space. That part keeps coming back in, trying to make sense of things.
SPEAKER_00:but
SPEAKER_02:also shows me where the work is because that part that part has a map of my system and that part knows like all the trailheads that we haven't followed yet so that part keeps bringing it
SPEAKER_01:in and they sound really helpful as well like there's a lot of good in that as well isn't there a lot of helpful stuff
SPEAKER_02:yeah they are really really helpful but they sometimes find it hard to remember that the exiles need to be connected to me. This one finds it hard to relinquish that control.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. We've got what's happening in the external system.
SPEAKER_02:Probably feels like a good place to circle back to. Yeah. Talking about the external system and then the impact on internal systems.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. The external system here, I mean, obviously there's lots of external systems, aren't there? There's kind of societal, cultural, familial education. But I guess in this context, primarily what we're talking about is maybe the political system that's then filtering down, percolating down societally.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, yeah, I think it feels really helpful to start with that, to start with what's happening, you know, that structural oppression that we're experiencing. And I guess, you know, I just, from my perspective, you know, the backdrop to this whole conversation is about what we're seeing is a consistent erosion of transgender rights in the UK as well, but particularly in the US where You know, there's been really, really horrifying and direct attacks on trans rights by the current administration. And we're seeing, you know, I guess thinking about that in IFS terms or systems terms, it feels like we're seeing very manager-led political and healthcare systems who have all of this power who are oppressing and marginalising the vulnerable. They're exercising control and power over trans people's bodies and not just trans people, of course. Acknowledging the intersectionality of all of this is really important, but I'm going to keep it to a trans perspective because that's mine. But acknowledging that, yes, many marginalised communities are being harmed. And then in that context, these really restrictive, controlling, manager-led systems, you know, it's the marginalized groups who are then the exiles in that systemic way. You know, trans people are the exiles here and the experiences of, you know, dehumanization and the denial of rights and the denial of our identity. I think that's the bit that some of my parts are really impacted by. And I'll say more about the impact on me in a moment, but yeah, the denial of identity. And then the firefighters in that context, you know, is the backlash that we see, but on both sides, you know, the anger, the blaming, the shaming, the criticizing, you know, of course that's happening. The trans community are blaming and criticizing these managerial power structures, but then they're shaming us right back. And so the polarizations are just escalating and escalating. Meanwhile, the exiles underneath, you know, nothing's changing.
SPEAKER_01:No, maybe even being further exiled. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02:being further harmed, further, you know, re-traumatized. Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:yeah, yeah. Again, that's something that Zee's talked about at my level three is about when we have this manager and firefighter behavior going on, that there's more exiling that goes on. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02:yeah. That makes so much sense. Thank you for bringing that clarity to it. Because yes, there is a real truth to that, that the more this escalates, the more harmful it becomes.
SPEAKER_01:And I just imagine how that kind of trauma that might, the exiles, thinking about how trauma is triggered, or triggered using that word, but just having that the sense of lack of safety, abuse of power, and everything that's happening, like, oh, this is familiar. And then everything that comes along with that, like, well, maybe you would like to speak to that, but it goes on. So
SPEAKER_02:what goes on inside?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I suppose what I'm imagining could happen is the world, like, it might be very quick for the world to feel unsafe because it's such a familiar place of being.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Well, that, I mean, that was my experience earlier this year. Like maybe I can speak a little bit about what happened in my system. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I don't want to speak. So yeah, that'd be helpful. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So when, when Trump came into power and all of this stuff started happening and all of this stuff started hitting the news, I kind of, I went through quite a process of, around, you know, what parts of me were responding to that.
SPEAKER_00:And
SPEAKER_02:I think at the beginning, there was kind of a bit of denial and almost not wanting to look at the news and just wanting to distance myself from it and be like, well, that's happening over there. I'm just not even going to think about it because it's too horrifying. So parts that just wanted to disconnect. But, you know, I could feel that that was a protective response because underneath that, there were parts who were holding back. a huge amount of fear and powerlessness and kind of terror. Those parts would sometimes like wake me in the night, you know, four o'clock in the morning with that sense of like existential dread and horror. And during the day, you know, my managers would keep me busy and my firefighters would distract me and not allow me to engage with that. So there was a lot of dissociating and soothing going on. Yeah. And then there was a really important shift for me when I went to the IFS UK gathering, you know, shortly after all of this was happening, the sort of Friday morning monthly gathering. And Melanie, Melanie Blemeyer led a really beautiful meditation where she asked us to kind of visualize like concentric circles with like one being in us, like our own kind of self energy. And then, a circle for family and friends, and then one that's slightly further out for kind of colleagues and communities, and then one that was right out as far away as we needed it to be for the, you know, the kind of external world and global and political kind of systems. I'm not sure if those are the words that she used, but that was how my sister interpreted it. And as I went through the process of that guided meditation, we moved from from us out and then, or maybe we started on the edge and moved back in. But either way, when I got to that outer circle, my exiles really, really blended, like really blended. And I ended up, you know, very, very tearful, like really kind of sobbing my way through that meditation. But in a way that felt good. Just to be really clear, it was in a way that felt good because I knew all of that stuff was in there and my protectors had not been allowing it through. And so actually for those young parts, it felt really good to be seen and acknowledged and just how painful and how scary this is. And then I took that to my therapist the following week, like after moving through that process of that real grief that I connected with, as well as the fear. Then in therapy, I was able to connect into some anger because anger is often very exiled in my system. My angry parts are often not, they're often pushed down by people pleasing, compliant, conflict avoidant parts. Anger doesn't feel safe. And so being able to connect into some healthy anger about what was happening felt really empowering. And then from that, I moved into therapy. more of a more of a place of action and so thinking about it from a nervous system perspective I'd gone from this kind of like very dorsal vague or kind of like shut down dissociated quite hopeless helpless place and then moving through that kind of healthy anger and that mobilization of like sympathetic activation those parts I then was able to come back to more of a place of self-leadership and I started to seek more connection and seek conversations with with allies and with other queer and trans people, like seeking connection through communities and moving into advocacy and moving into using my voice. And I did another podcast interview a couple of months ago on the Curiosity Cure where I spoke in a lot more detail about this particular bit of the process. And that was that real culmination of empowerment of that healthy anger helping to empower me so that I could come back to a self-led place and use my voice and be seen and actually allow myself to be visible once all those fearful you know kind of checked out parts had relaxed
SPEAKER_01:That's great, that podcast. I'll put a link on the notes for that if people want to have a listen. But, yes, it's kind of a– it's sort of coming from a different place, isn't it? It feels like rather than maybe a firefighter place of rage, like a more kind of self-led anger, like something that feels much more self-led, like speaking– from like fueled by the anger, but from a place of self rather than shaming yourself or shaming others.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it feels, it has a really different quality where there's like self leadership, but with the anger and the kind of as the co-pilot, I guess, you know, like the anger is lending some support or energy. And I know this isn't video, so people can't see the gesture, but it's almost like the anger has my back. So that I can then hold onto that place of self-leadership where I'm feeling supported. And my sense is that that anger, that sympathetic activation is kind of like the fire that helps to actually forge some real clarity, like that clarity of self-leadership and the courage and the confidence of self-leadership. Because those are really strong qualities. And my sense is that anger can really support those when our anger is... is there but holding back but giving us enough space to find that again I'm using a lot of gestures but that real clarity that real centering of this is important and I want to use my voice and there are parts that are raging but they're not the ones who are doing the talking
SPEAKER_01:yeah but they might feel less rage because they're actually being spoken for there's a flavour of what's being spoken which is to do with where they're coming from so they might feel less ragey perhaps it's coming up for me
SPEAKER_02:Given that a lot of my angry parts are really young, you know, we're back to the three-year-old again. I don't want to curtsy. Actually, you know, my three-year-old angry part is not the most coherent. So I have a lot more words when I'm coming from a self-led place. I can be much
SPEAKER_01:more articulate. Yeah, yeah. And there's a place for that physical, biological. I mean, you, if anyone will know, it's important to feel that stuff physiologically, to connect with it. But actually, if we want to be, if we want to be heard and seen and connect with others
SPEAKER_00:it's
SPEAKER_01:going to be more likely if we can actually do it from a place of speaking with clarity and
SPEAKER_02:if we want people to listen we need to be able to hold on to the compassion for what's happening in other people's systems even when that can be really difficult for our angry parts being able to hold on to enough compassion and enough perspective recognize with these really difficult conversations yeah you know parts get activated on both sides and and trying to understand where that's coming from like even with the most extreme kind of polarities but we're seeing you know in america at the moment um i think there was i'm you i think you almost asked a question earlier and i'm not sure if it was before we started recording really it's almost like you know the why like why why does this even happen and yeah I guess my answer to that is, you know, if you look at the word transphobia, you know, phobia, it's fear. And so much of it is driven by fear. And I think that particularly, you know, I think that all of these, all oppression is rooted in the structures that we live in. So it's all rooted in capitalism, white supremacy and the patriarchy. Like those three things to me are just so important. meshed and all the sorts of marginalization and oppression that we see is is connected to one or all of those three and i think that trans people are a huge threat to the patriarchy because patriarchy crumbles when when we acknowledge gender diversity and and you know and the complexity of like you know gender fluidity non-binary identities transition you know that just like cuts the legs off the table of patriarchy doesn't it so it so it kind of does make sense to me why there is um so much resistance to it
SPEAKER_01:yeah yeah it's because people are empowered yeah it's a loss of power yeah yeah
SPEAKER_02:hold on to that Or if these systems and structures can't hold on to that because it's not even about the individual.
SPEAKER_01:And this, again, it's like I can remember when I first did my first training and talking about difference, you know, and how key it is as a therapist to really, I think we all have, I know that I will always have parts of me that make judgments of others. It's just there, you know. We all have
SPEAKER_02:parts that do
SPEAKER_01:that. And the work as a therapist is to be aware of that. And I remember as much as possible, you know, to work on that. And I remember talking about why do we make, you know, there's something around making the world safe. Like if the world is predictable and kind of simple and how we see it, then we're going to feel safer in it. But I don't know if that makes sense. if that sort of makes sense. That's what was coming up for me when you were talking about that. Oh, everything isn't straightforward and simple. There's this huge, amazing diversity, you know, and that's wonderful, but it's also really scary.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, loss of control. Yeah. Loss of...
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and that's often what... Because phobia is an anxiety-related thing, isn't it? And that's what anxiety is, is about loss of control, not being able to control. Yeah. People were saying the same thing.
SPEAKER_02:It all comes back to power and control. Yeah. I think that was, you know, seems to be so central to all of this.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And we're sort of talking about, I think, how we kind of led on to that a little bit about being able to have these conversations because that's also partly what's so difficult is that it's so important to be able to have these conversations and the more we're polarised, the less possible it becomes. yeah kind of it makes us more it yeah makes it much more different doesn't it we're not able to actually talk to people that are different to us
SPEAKER_02:yeah thank you just noticing parts finding you know it feels really difficult to even have have the conversation about the conversations yeah yeah and um And it can be so difficult, but I feel like it is really important to speak to how challenging it is to have self-led anti-oppressive trans affirming conversations about this issue it's it's just in my experience that's really difficult and so I would like to speak about that and I just want to acknowledge I have a manager part yeah help me to really plan the words that I wanted to use for this part of the conversation so it's a bit less organic and a bit more planned but Because I think I have a manager who is concerned that if I use the wrong words, that I'm going to alienate people and that I'm going to actually just feed into those polarizations. So there is a part who's taken a lot of care in trying to word this in a way that will hopefully land well with most of the people who are listening. And I also need to remind that part that I can't control how it lands for other people. But I want to acknowledge there is a part of me who tried to help me to, yeah, to find that self-led place to kind of get the words right, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, thank you to them. And also to keep it, I suppose, maybe there's something also there in keeping it as safe as possible.
SPEAKER_02:yeah safety for me because there are parts that are concerned about backlash if it doesn't land well so so yeah so you might hear my paper rustle because I have got this bit written down but um I'd really like to just speak for the yeah the impact on my system and the challenges around holding conversations um where I'm the minority in the room so holding conversations where most of the people in the room are cisgender around these issues about you know, trans rights and gender diversity. And unfortunately, having these conversations in cis majority spaces often doesn't go well, even when the people there, the cisgender people there, consider themselves to be allies and have really good intentions. I've had so many frustrating and painful experiences when I'm trying to advocate for trans issues and inclusivity throughout my counselling training and also sometimes within the IFS community. Because in these conversations, so often parts in everybody get activated. And the conversation often shifts so that the needs and feelings of cis people in the space become centered. And then the conversation turns into debate that isn't trans affirming and that can be really hurtful for trans people in the space. And all of those polarizations from the kind of external systems sometimes end up getting played out in the room. And so, again, you know, I've had these conversations many times and just very often I end up hearing people expressing their gender critical views in the space or debating the validity of trans identities or questioning whether there's even a need for people to transition or complaining about how difficult it is to use non-binary pronouns and don't even get me started on the debate about bathrooms and toilets and safe spaces. And another really common issue, and I want to really acknowledge the sensitivity of bringing this, but another common issue is that sometimes when I might be trying to have a conversation about trans issues, is that parts in cis people who hold pain and who hold grief end up wanting to speak for their distress about the transition of a relative and the pain of having a relative who's trans and what that's like for them. And of course, those feelings are really, really valid. And it's really important that people have a space to process their grief or the challenge about a trans family member. But it's not, to me, it feels not appropriate to bring those topics into a conversation that was originally intended to be about trans issues and about diversity and inclusion. Because those examples that I've given above, none of those things are trans issues. those are issues that cisgender people have with trans people, which is a completely different thing. So it is, it's that polarisation of a part in me wanting to talk about trans rights and how we can do that better. And then the polarisation of parts in other people that want to speak about where trans people are a challenge for them in some way. And so those conversations really need to be held constantly. quite separately because trans people are not the problem transphobia is the problem yeah yeah and is it okay if i say a little bit about what happens in me in those situations as well yeah to speak for my part yeah i mean what tends to happen in me is that i end up um I end up feeling very silenced. It's very difficult for me to hold on to enough self-energy to speak when that happens because my exiles, of course, get activated. And then my angry part also gets activated. And then my people-pleasing kind of compliant parts. And also I have a part that dissociates as well. They kind of come in to try and make sure that I don't speak out in anger and make things worse. Those parts would fear. And what tends to happen is that if there isn't an ally in the room who will kind of step in and support, is that I usually then just end up losing my voice and I don't actually speak up. And I end up leaving those conversations just feeling kind of crushed and a bit dissociated and often end up having a physical backlash in my system of like pain or fatigue for days or weeks afterwards because the kind of compliant people pleasing parts just kind of smile and nod along and let that conversation be derailed. And I don't have the, I can't access the confidence and the courage to kind of pull it back and say, this doesn't feel okay for me. And it's just so disappointing to be on the receiving end of those kind of conversations. And it is exhausting. I'm just so tired of having to debate my existence, having to defend my existence. And I think as a result of this, I've now reached a point where I have some clarity around that actually, from my safety, I'm now only willing to engage in those conversations if there is some real clarity around the purpose of the conversation and some boundaries set in place to hold that and to maintain a safe container. And I want to make sure that when I have those conversations that there is at least one ally present who knows in advance that it is their role to support that process and to try and keep it transaffirming and to speak up if I lose my voice if something's happening in the room and I lose my voice because I think there's a sense that quite often particularly in IFS spaces we often have this belief that if we can trust in self-leadership you know that we can have these courageous conversations and it's fine as long as we're all staying self-led but sometimes we lose self-leadership when our part I mean that's the whole point is when parts blend we lose the ability to be self-led and so for me it feels like in order to keep those spaces safe enough to have these conversations about diversity and inclusion, we do need to have boundaries and we need to have, you know, maybe co-facilitators to help keep conversations on track.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, thank you. And thank you for letting me kind of go through what my parts had so carefully helped me to plan. because these are just such difficult emotive topics, but it just feels so clear to me that if we are trying to have a conversation about inclusion and about marginalization, that we need to, you know, center the trans voices in that space and that cis people have other places where they can speak for parts,
SPEAKER_01:you know,
SPEAKER_02:and maybe struggling with something that's kind of trans adjacent, but yeah, it's not a trans issue, it's a cis person issue. Yeah, yeah. How are you doing? Yeah, a little bit of activation. I'm feeling some parts that are like, you know, was that okay to say that? And are concerned about upsetting other people or making other people angry or defensive, afraid about... I have a lot of parts who are afraid about pouring fuel on the polarizations, I guess, you know.
SPEAKER_00:But
SPEAKER_02:it also does feel important to speak for it. And I just hope that... I've been able to do that in a way that people are able to, if necessary, do their own U-turns and then perhaps be able to listen in
SPEAKER_01:a different way. And it makes sense that you would have parts that would you know, after you've said something out loud, might then be like, yeah,
SPEAKER_02:all my parts that would rather be invisible, that would rather silence me are all like, oh, and then I'm reminding those parts that I also know that, you know, we can edit this if we need to remind those parts that there's an option.
SPEAKER_00:So
SPEAKER_02:I listen to it again, you know, I can listen to it afterwards and check and see. feels
SPEAKER_01:you can let them know that that none of this has to be said out loud if they don't feel comfortable with it
SPEAKER_02:and I also noticing I need to remind you know my yeah my kind of people pleasing caretaking parts that you know I'm not responsible for other people's emotional responses to this that's actually not my work to do that's not my thing to manage and hold absolutely yeah And I'm, yeah, reminding and maybe checking. I didn't say anything that was sort of shaming or inflammatory and, you know, or if someone perceived it that way again, maybe that's more about them than it is about me and my words.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. That if you're seen and heard in a way, you know, that's for other people's parts, isn't it? That are kind of almost shaping it to feed into their system rather than actually what you've said.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, just acknowledging my parts that are so cautious and around not wanting
SPEAKER_01:to do harm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a difficult balance, isn't it? It's really,
SPEAKER_02:really difficult. I think my parts find it difficult to accept that you can never please everybody. And to some of my parts, that's, what do you mean you can never please everybody? Like, that's not safe. I need to please everybody. Otherwise I'm not safe.
SPEAKER_01:Because it's been really unsafe not to please people. It could have even been, you know, if it's happened at a time when you were really little, it could have been about life or death.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:When you're not so little, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:There was something around, I had this sort of sense of how, are you okay? Do you need to move?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, just again, really feeling how hard it is to have these conversations. I mean, even in this context where it's just you and me, but I know that other people will listen to it and, you know, will react in ways that I have no control over. And that does feel really scary to some of my
SPEAKER_01:parts. Yes, it's almost like there's power to that person who has... Really, in reality, you know, it has no power at all, but that doesn't matter. You know, it can be someone that's sitting listening to it on the other side of the world, you know, but because of your past experiences, that doesn't matter. It's like, mustn't say this.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It's the sort of potency, I guess it's a reflection of how much vulnerability there is, you know, the kind of the potency of the managers or the firefighters, the protectors, how strong they are, it reflects the amount of vulnerability that there is underneath.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it always feels so helpful to just pause and kind of do that U-turn. And for my part, it's one of the things that's, often really helpful is very, very consciously updating them because even parts I've done a lot of work with and parts that have done a lot of unburdening, they can quite often forget, like they can slip back into those old patterns of fear. And so reminding those parts of like, where I do have power and privilege now, reminding those parts that I'm not at school anymore, And the other thing that's really coming up for me now and feels really important to speak for here, because it kind of goes into what we might talk about in a moment, which is reminding those parts that I'm not alone now, that I do have support. I do have connection. I do have community. I have, you know, I have connection within the queer and trans community. And I also have a lot of like really amazing friends and allies like you and others who, who really do have my back yeah and that feels even as I say that actually I can just feel like an expansion in my chest and so much gratitude for the fact that that is that is true now like some of my little parts still kind of forget that and I can almost feel them popping their heads up and being like oh oh yeah you you do you know you're not You're not alone. You do have people who support you and who care about you and who kind of champion you. And that feels really good for those parts. I'm very lucky to have you in their lives. People who can offer that support when it's needed. And I really do. And I'm really grateful to those people. And some of them might end up listening to this. And if they hear this, they'll know who they are. Yeah. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Can they take that in? Have they taken that in? Those ones?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, they did. I felt the shift. I felt the shift in my system from that constriction to a kind of like a real kind of opening and expansion and like gratitude and yeah. Yeah. Feeling of connection and community and how wonderful that is for my part.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I had parts of my own that were really resonating when it came to have that experience of silencing because they were like, oh, hello. You know, there might be just one person who I might have said something that's going to upset them, you know, and they might not even be on this side of the world, but it's like, no, no, we won't say it. You know, so I really, they wanted to just say hi to you all and say, you know, they're not alone. Yeah, those silencing parts. Yeah. And that kind of sense of, like, in the moment, we can make those sort of total strangers who we're never going to meet really powerful. Yeah. Yeah. If it's all right with me to say, I don't have to, but I was just thinking what came up for me when you were talking just now about that experience is how, I hope this is okay to say, but it's like, Well, I think you kind of said it, but like how you become something that's sort of projected onto, other people project their own pain and grief onto you as a sort of like just being in the room there, speaking from the place of a trans person. And it's like, well, okay, we're going to talk about their parts. So like, okay, now it's safe for me to talk about my, like you say, it's actually nothing to do with you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I don't know if it feels like a projection onto me. It's more something about in a discussion around trans issues, then suddenly it's like, and maybe there is, you know, maybe it's where there isn't a clarity around that's what this conversation is for, but it's almost like people hear the word transgender and then use that as an opportunity to talk about anything that's related to transgender people in any way, rather than it being focused on trans issues and inclusion and affirmative discussion. And it is a strange thing that happens. Does it happen a lot? Yeah, it does happen. It does happen an awful lot. And I do find it... some of my parts do still find it really kind of confusing and I do wonder if in other conversations about other types of diversity and difference whether it happens in the same way and maybe it does but I have a sense that perhaps it happens a bit more often sometimes with trans because also I think it's modelled in our media I mean it still seems to be socially acceptable for trans people. Well, it is socially acceptable, let's face it, for trans people's identities to be debated in politics. That's being debated at a political level in the way that some other marginalised groups are no longer debated at the political level in quite the same way. And that's not to say that there isn't still massive inequality in so many areas, but there's something about how the trans debate... Like, why are we even debating? Yes. Why are we even debating it? Like, surely we need to have more inclusion and more equality yet that's not how it is. It's almost like, well, do you even deserve rights? It's actually a conversation at a political level. And I think, actually, that's really interesting for me because I feel like I've got a little bit of clarity more on why these conversations get so messy. It's because our governments are modelling that it's okay to debate trans people's existence and do we even deserve rights and should we even be allowed to transition and take hormones and have surgeries and change our bodies in a way that feels aligned. There's nobody debates whether you can have a nose job. It's like, it's madness to me. That's a pass. I just noticed it. Hello. I'll just let that one, you know, let it know it can sit back now. But yeah, it does feel like there's some real clarity around part of the reason that these conversations are so hard to have in a trans affirming way is because our political systems are not remotely trans affirming, not even close. It's still all up for debate. right now and that that does feel different to some other types of diversity where things are a little bit further forward even if there's still massive problems and inequalities and a lot of injustice it does feel like some trans rights are lagging behind some of the areas in just the way that we have these conversations and what people think is acceptable
SPEAKER_01:yeah yeah a friend of mine who's disabled who has spent a lot of her life advising public people that design public spaces but she's been doing that. I haven't spoken to her about it recently, but she was doing, you know, it started like 20, 30 years ago. And it's learning to make something. Oh God, is it, how long is it going to take now when you go on the underground is normal to have a little, you know, for it to be as part of, you know, think, you know, thinking through how is a disabled person going to be on it on the tube? It seems small part. It's like it's arrived like that as a way of being is now has now arrived and, has power and we're going to think about that, although someone who's disabled then might say it's not nearly as thought through as it should be, but at least it's moved on from decades ago. Am I making sense?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's my sense. And in a way, like, you know, I do have a part that's concerned. Is that even true? And I don't want to make assumptions about other types of marginalization that I can't speak for. But I guess it's more of a question. It's more of a curiosity in me. And I do feel that where equality is kind of enshrined in politics and it still doesn't mean it's going to happen. But just the fact that trans equality is still not even... it's still being debated. You know, it's not even enshrined. There aren't even really enough laws to protect trans people at the moment. But obviously that's, that's my opinion. And I'm sure that there will be people listening who won't agree with that necessarily. It's, I mean, the whole conversation is so difficult, but I just, I just have a sense that that might be why these conversations are so hard to hold because it's almost like it's acceptable to debate. You know, the, existence and the you know, the validity of the trans identity, that's actually an acceptable thing to debate in culture. So therefore it comes into the room. But actually in a trans affirming space, that is not acceptable. That's not trans affirming.
SPEAKER_01:That is when we were talking about before the external system of politics in that system, that's still being debated.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:exactly. It trickles
SPEAKER_02:down. It makes sense that it trickles down into the room. And that's really helped some of my parts actually to understand why these things do get raised in those spaces because like while i still don't think it's okay in a trans affirming space to have that debate i can understand why people don't realize it's not okay because they see it modeled they see it in the media they see it on television they see it in the house of commons so so it just feels like it's fair game i think probably to some people's parts so before we finish
SPEAKER_01:we could maybe talk about um what we can all do to practice anti-oppression particularly in relation to transphobia maybe we've started touching on that a little bit
SPEAKER_02:yeah I mean I think it's a really a really important thing to consider and hopefully there will be lots of people listening who want to be you know more trans affirming and so um I won't say too much about it but what I will say actually is that I wanted to try and get my own clarity around what that means you know even as a trans person I didn't have clarity and I actually use chat GPT if you go to chat GPT and type in what can I do to be trans affirming and anti-oppressive you get a really lovely like bullet pointed list of suggestions but and most of those felt really really true for me so I mean one big one is education is like actually learn about the trans community and about you know educate yourself on some of those aspects You know, listen, listen to trans voices. Try to be respectful when trans people are sharing their experience. You know, be an advocate, speak up, support, amplify the voices of minorities. Try to be inclusive, you know, things like inviting pronouns to be shared, you know, is a really helpful one. It should never be a compulsory thing, but there's that invitation, normalising the invitation for pronouns is really supportive. Allowing for social identity introductions is another thing that I think can be really helpful. And doing your own work, doing your own work, working with your own parts, like looking at your privilege list, looking at parts of you who may hold burdens or beliefs about gender and gender diversity and the binary and parts who you know parts who may end up sort of enacting out, you know, the kind of like cis fragility, which is a term that's borrowed from like white fragility when we're talking about race. But that's, you know, parts who will get defensive, parts who will kind of like double down and not want to listen or parts who are uncomfortable about examining cis privilege and owning cis privilege. So, you know, doing your work in your own system around that and remembering that. you know, remembering to consider intersectionality because that's so important as well. There's so much overlap, you know, within these groups, you know, as a, as a white male presenting trans person, you know, I have a lot more power than a person of color, a trans feminine person of color, you know, who is some of the most vulnerable people within the trans community and the ones who are, who often experience the most hatred, the most violence.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But I think those are some of the things which I think are really important. And for all of us, it's important to do our own work and our own systems around our privilege and around our bias, those internal biases, so that we can all be more inclusive for all diversity, all minority groups. And just in terms of like, Slightly shifting that into like, what does being an ally actually look like? Because I think that's another really important question. And as I say this, I don't want it to sound critical or shaming, but I think it's very easy to say I'm an ally. But what does that actually mean? Some people I think say, oh, I'm an ally, as in that means they think, well, I'm not directly opposing trans rights, therefore I'm an ally. But actually, I think allyship is about more than that. not opposing allyship is about taking active steps to support and speak up for people in minority groups and so you know some of the things that i've experienced where i've experienced allyship that's been really supportive and really meaningful for me is where allies will will help by speaking up in a space where maybe I'm feeling disempowered and have gone into kind of that slightly freeze dissociated state where I can't find my words in that moment. And so having an ally kind of step in and call a pause, maybe invite a U-turn in everybody who's there, that's been really helpful for me.
SPEAKER_00:The
SPEAKER_02:reality check as well from an ally sometimes, like if an ally says, I'm not comfortable with what's some of the things that have been said here, For me, that's really helpful because I have these parts, these internal parts who almost kind of gaslight me and think, am I misunderstanding? Did I hear that wrong? Surely this can't really be happening. That's not really what that person meant. And so to have an ally kind of reality check, like actually there is something happening here that maybe doesn't feel great, is is really is really helpful
SPEAKER_01:yeah
SPEAKER_02:and asking those questions you know is this the right space for these parts to be spoken for
SPEAKER_01:yeah
SPEAKER_02:and then calling back in so calling out where there's something that's uncomfortable and then calling in the minority voice in the space like checking in with you know the the person like you know in this example the trans people in the space I want to check with the people in the space who are actually trans like how is this landing for you like what do you need and other things that have been really helpful for me is where there has been some kind of challenging conversation like that having people check in afterwards having people check up on me having people hold space for me to unblend to like work through, to process anything that's happened, that's been challenging, you know, those things have been really helpful, you know, personally in the small systems. And then more broadly, you know, allies getting involved in activism, actually, you know, taking action, signing petitions, writing to MPs and modelling pronoun use, again, modelling invitations or checking what people's pronouns are, not assuming somebody's pronouns when you meet them. and again most importantly being willing to listen and reflect on feedback so if you are given some feedback from somebody around something that could maybe be handled more sensitively or done differently that would be more inclusive being willing to listen and working with parts that maybe make that difficult
SPEAKER_01:yeah yeah even those of us that might really feel that we've done the work being aware that there might be parts of us that have that haven't caught up with the picture you know and to be open to those um and yeah like i think you said that earlier on like doing our own work
SPEAKER_02:it's i mean it's just so important and you know and i include myself in that with all of the all of the difference and all of the diversity that is not mine you know like I need to do that too I have a part who wants to say I'm not perfect noticing that part that wants to really own that I've got so much of my own work to do still around things like ableism and race and you know I really recognize that and The
SPEAKER_00:more
SPEAKER_02:I learn and the more I experience, you know, the more I recognise that I need to keep doing those things myself.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and it's what's coming... Well, I'm not saying, yeah, you need to. I'm not agreeing with that necessarily. I think you've probably already done quite a lot on that. But there's always learning to be had. It's like it's so much, you know, going back to thinking about why people aren't doing this, right back to full circle to the beginning. It's... it's like it's it's not an easy journey is it and it's something that we need to you know it's not like a one that's going to be finished probably you know it's not like uh you know it's something that's shifting and changing and and really important to to do regularly you know it's like an ongoing it's so
SPEAKER_02:yeah it's a constant it's a constant challenge and And again, you know, that question about why aren't people doing this? I mean, I think, you know, there's probably two categories of people. There are people who don't care and who don't want to do the work. And unfortunately, some of those are the ones who are in power. And then there are people, you know, talking within our community, within the IFS community, you know, where I'm absolutely sure that everybody within the IFS community wants to do their own work and has good intentions and, you know, wants to do the right thing. But but it's complicated. And also we don't always know the trailheads that we need to follow until they emerge. And sometimes those trailheads emerge through these difficult, courageous conversations. Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:yeah, absolutely. Hi, I'm here again with Phil. We are having a sort of added on chat regarding the... So some stuff has come up since we recorded our original conversation. And we did want to have another chat, but it was primarily the Supreme Court ruling that's happened here in the UK less than a week ago, which has stated that the Equality Act can only refer to biological women or men. We decided that it would be helpful to add some on some of our thoughts on this onto the podcast as it feels very relevant we've been talking about it actually for almost an hour before and we're still both feeling quite confused i think but
SPEAKER_02:yeah yeah thank you for acknowledging the confusion it feels really helpful to just to name that because um i have parts who are you know concerned about not being able to speak clearly around this topic because it does feel, it feels so new. And I think my system's still in shock, still kind of reeling from that ruling and also kind of still trying to make sense of it. You know, some of my managers and cognitive parts are trying really hard to actually try and make sense of it and, you know, listening to various commentaries and reading various commentaries about it. still trying to make sense of what it means. Yeah. Yeah, it does. It feels like a lot, again. Yeah. A lot to be processing, a lot to be sitting with.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. The tail end of the initial chat, there's this discussion around how trans people's experience is still open for discussion and debate and like here we go again it's like
SPEAKER_02:yeah absolutely here it is you know right there front and center in all the news this week and um yeah i mean regarding this ruling i think some of the stuff in the media has been has been really inaccurate actually i think i think a lot of the um a lot of the newspapers a lot of the news websites have jumped to various conclusions that are not true about what the ruling actually means. So I think it would be helpful to speak for that a little bit. First of all, I do want to acknowledge that to me it feels, it does feel very, it feels very problematic and it feels, this whole thing feels like yet another attack on trans rights and trans identity and particularly an attack on trans women. And I think the way that this ruling went through and the way that it was funded and the way that it was fought for really does feel like that because it was very much, it was funded by and pushed through by actively transphobic groups. And it was funded by powerful people who have trans, you know, very transphobic views. And moreover, like the decision was made by cis people. It was cis people who pushed the agenda and, all of the judges involved in the decision were cisgender. And my understanding is that they did not consult with the trans community at all around this. And they actually refused to read submissions from trans organizations. That's my understanding. So that to me feels, the way that it was done feels really problematic. But the ruling itself is very, very specific. And it's about The wording is based on the wording in the Equality Act of 2010. And my understanding is that the fundamental thing that this ruling is saying is that in the Equality Act, where the Equality Act uses the term woman, it's referring to a biological woman. So they are therefore excluding trans women from that definition. So it's a very, very specific thing that this ruling is saying. But the inaccurate reporting is fueling an awful lot of fear in the trans community. And in a way, that fear is also justified because I think the issue here is what people in positions of power and policymakers and public services, it's how they choose to interpret that ruling that can potentially change. really make a difference and also my sense is that it sets a really dangerous precedent and I think for my system it feels like a oh you know is this the direction that we're heading in I have a lot of parts you're really scared that this is just the start of more and I hope that I hope that those parts are wrong and that maybe it'll be the start it'll it'll be something that will pushed for some change in the opposite direction, but it does feel as if it potentially sets a really dangerous precedent. But I just want to really focus on the fact that this ruling, because it's based entirely on the wording of the Equality Act, it feels so important to hold that it's based on a piece of legislation that's actually really out of date.
SPEAKER_00:And if
SPEAKER_02:anything, this ruling highlights a desperate need for the Equality Act to be updated so that it meets the needs of the trans community better. Because the Equality Act is based on a flawed, fundamentally completely flawed assumption that biological sex is binary, which is not true. The Equality Act makes no mention of intersex people. who possibly are up to something like 2% of the population are intersex. And that's completely ignored in the Equality
SPEAKER_00:Act.
SPEAKER_02:And so that needs to be addressed. And also the Equality Act doesn't take into account the complexity of trans identities at all. Like the Equality Act as it's currently written, gender identity is not a protected characteristic. gender reassignment is, but that then excludes, you know, people within the trans and non-binary community who have not yet done anything medically to change their bodies or who may not wish to, because not all trans people do want to change their bodies. You know, gender identity is incredibly complex and how we choose to kind of manifest that is really, really different for the individual. And so There's a lack of nuance and understanding of the complexity of these identities in the Equality Act. And my sense is that's what needs to be addressed. And I've already
SPEAKER_00:written to
SPEAKER_02:the MP to request, you know, an overhaul of the Equalities Act. It seems to me that that's outdated and needs to be changed. So my hope is that that will be something that may come of this, is that there will be calls for that to be updated.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that would be hopefully a positive.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. But it just, I'm just really noticing that heaviness and just the sadness that it's come to this. Yeah. And I guess I also wanted to acknowledge, I mean, I think in our previous conversation, which of course, as people are listening, it's all the same conversation. But when we met to record the first part of this podcast, I think one of the things I briefly mentioned in a very flippant way, because I think I said something like, don't get me started on the bathroom debate because I have parts that just don't want to talk about it because it's such an incredibly polarised issue. But now I feel like to not acknowledge that in the light of this new ruling, you know, that doesn't really feel right to ignore it and to leave that as the only thing I said about it. So I guess I just want to say that for me, It feels as if it's kind of, it's a smoke screen and this battle for women's rights and women's safety feels like it's being aimed in totally the wrong direction because it feels to me as if those, you know, the people who are pushing through this kind of legislation, that they're conflating transgender women with predatory cisgender men. And those are just not the same thing. And that just makes me really sad, particularly as a parent of a transgender daughter. That makes me, on a personal level, really sad, as well as for my community. And I don't want to say for a moment that male violence against women isn't a problem. It's a huge problem. But trans women are not the problem. And if only all of the energy that's going into anti-transphobic campaigns could be put into addressing trans you know, the root causes of male violence. You know, what could we do to support, to support boys, to support boys to grow up so that they don't have perpetrating parts who want to hurt women, you know, and what could we do to support? I know it just feels like it's being, it feels like we're aiming all of that in the wrong direction to me.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. And it all kind of this sort of fundamental thing essence of power and control in different systems. And it's like the wrong system has been highlighted.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it does. I mean, I genuinely do really, I'm really noticing the confusion in me because I try to understand where the other side is coming from. That feels really important. Yes, absolutely. But it does, to me, it does feel quite baffling why trans women are being seen as such a threat. when to me that seems so obvious that that's not what the problem is here. The problem is systemic, whatever it is that drives male violence towards women, that's the problem we need to be addressing in trans women and not that. It's just something so different.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and like you were saying before we started recording, how important it is for us to be able to have these debates You know, how really I kind of almost feel like I would like someone who's very happy about this ruling to be here. And so we could sort of hear from them exactly what's, you know, from an open place, like, you know, to get an understanding. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, as you said that, I noticed some parts of me that were like, but then also from a self-led place, I do want to understand because without understanding, without listening, you know, we're never really going to be able to change anything. But I'm glad that you raised that because that does also make me recognize, you know, there is a part that I kind of want to speak for that has concerns about the way that I've spoken on this podcast around, you know, around sort of safe spaces and trans affirming spaces. And I do have a concern that some people listening, you know, I'm going to come across as like trying to silence and censor people and not allowing people to have their own views. And I guess I want to say that, you know, that that's not what I'm trying to do. Yeah. And I do still have confusion in my system around what is and isn't okay in certain spaces and certain conversations. And I still have more questions than clarity in my system around, you know, what can we ask for in safe spaces? Especially if we're trying to have a conversation about inclusion. And are we allowed boundaries about what is brought into those conversations? Yeah. even if people are speaking for their parts and not from their parts. And it's, you know, in IFS, we say all parts are welcome, but all behaviors are not welcome. And I think that then sometimes means that we feel like it's okay. We can always speak for our parts. We can always say what we think as long as we're speaking for a part. But then my sense is that in these difficult conversations, those parts blend so easily. And then that can... energy of those parts can still be felt and can still be quite harmful especially in the marginalized people in that space and so you know maybe it's not always sensitive or constructive to speak for parts who have really extreme views but it all depends on the space and it depends on the context of that conversation I think yeah but it does feel really important to acknowledge the need for wider and more inclusive debate as well like I think we need trans affirming conversations about inclusion but we also need wider and more inclusive debates and as well as hearing from trans voices and allies you know we do need to hear from people who have gender critical views like we need to hear from the parts in those who have concerns that are driving you know the way that they're reacting because we're never going to be able to de-escalate those polarizations unless both sides get to speak but most importantly unless both sides are heard so we really need to be able to create opportunities for nuanced debate where both sides can speak and both sides can really try and listen from from a kind of open place but of course you know that That's the challenge. That's the challenge is to get our protective parts to give us enough space that we can hear from the other side.
SPEAKER_01:And I wanted to say like, you know, apologies for just saying, oh, we should have invited someone with gender critical views here. So I guess that's the thing of like, it's really important. I suppose what's coming up for me is like, what is a safe space? You know, what makes a space safe? And I guess that's going to make it feel unsafe if I suddenly go, oh, and Phil, I'm just inviting. Without any warning or any kind of discussion before. Yeah. Same way for that person as well. Absolutely, yeah. You know, maybe, I don't know, maybe it isn't possible to ever, because something about a space feeling safe is about what's going on inside us, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:It's really...
SPEAKER_01:But maybe there's only so much we can do to do everything that we can to try and make it that way. But then also what's really important is that we bring everyone in, everyone from any marginalized community even, to actually really talk about what they need and what would be important for them. And then what they might need might be different to another person, even within their marginalized community, because everyone's different, aren't they? It's kind of like... I guess as soon as you start making any kind of general assumptions, then you're not going in the right direction,
SPEAKER_02:really. And I do feel that the idea of safe spaces is we can never really promise safe spaces to anybody. And on the IFS Level 1 trainings, they sometimes talk about the concept of a brave space. In order to have a growing edge, it needs to be a brave space because in safe spaces... it's harder to have any change. Yes. And I guess like that's where, you know, if we're only ever having trans affirming conversations and people who have gender critical views are only ever speaking to other people with gender critical views, then those might be safe spaces, but they're also echo chambers.
SPEAKER_00:And
SPEAKER_02:so there is that need for both. But I guess for me, what comes down to what would make a place feel safe enough is, would be that clarity and that purpose about that conversation. So for me, I like to know what I'm letting myself in for. So if I say, hey, I'd like to have a conversation about how we can be more inclusive in the IFS community, then the topic of that conversation is inclusivity. So in that space, I would like it to remain trans affirming. Whereas if it's a wider conversation about, you know, a conversation where people are debating trans identities and trans existence and some of the stuff that is still up for debate. Parts of me wish it wasn't, but it is. If I was going to engage in one of those conversations, I would like to know that that was what I was going into. I would like to know in advance. So I wouldn't want to be in a situation where I'm suddenly faced with like a very gender critical perspective unexpectedly that would probably be quite difficult for me and that wouldn't feel safe whereas if i'm going into something knowing that there are both sides in the room and that both sides are going to have an opportunity to speak that would feel really different so it does it does feel like it comes down to me like clarity about about what sort of conversation we're holding
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. And I was also, as I was, as you were speaking and I was just thinking about it, it was almost like the opposite extreme to that is kind of social media, isn't it? It's like the wild west of sort
SPEAKER_00:of
SPEAKER_01:where there's no, where people can say whatever they want and there's no, not censoring, that's not really the right word, but there's no balance of kind of, well, yeah, well, okay, well, that's your view. And what about this also, another view? It's the opposite extreme. There's something in that that's coming up for me around systems as well, and power and control, and maybe something around really looking at that in a space where something that might be quite challenging for some people's parts to... be with for lots of different reasons, how it's so important that power and control is really, it's making me think of like when we pause with parts, pause and just, you know, like take time, like really, you know, how quickly something could really become dangerous even, feel
SPEAKER_02:dangerous. Yeah, I guess I'm feeling the need, you know, in a in a in more open debate like really feeling the need perhaps for for mediation for people who are there in the role of like mediators and unblenders um because these because these you know the wider kind of gender debate when we're bringing in gender critical views um you know, it's so polarised and it's so potentially harmful that it does feel like in order to create safety in those spaces, there is a need for, you know, potentially a need for mediation, like
SPEAKER_01:couples
SPEAKER_02:therapy,
SPEAKER_01:you know. Yeah, there need to be mediators that have training in this area, in the area of power and control and have a lot, you know, and have a really well-educated, because otherwise they can just become part of the abusive system, you know, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely. And I guess that's what I've experienced in a small way in certain conversations where I've tried to give feedback, for example, to a tutor about something in a training that I was on. And this is not within the RFS community, I want to add. This is my more general counselling training. But yeah, just being met with defensiveness, being met with... you know someone really not willing to listen to my voice as a trans person and then that just you know then I'm feeling even more come out of that conversation feeling even more oppressed rather than feeling supported you know
SPEAKER_01:and that thing of like oh hang on a sec I think when that sort of scenario it can be so easy to go into that place of I'm equating it to the work that I've done in the domestic abuse arena where there's been kind of bullying and how quickly that the person that's being bullied can just think oh It's me. Should I even be saying this? Yeah. I don't know. No,
SPEAKER_02:that really makes sense to me. I've definitely experienced that. Like I have a sort of an internal, I think I mentioned it before, like a kind of internal gaslighting part that will sometimes question, you know, if something isn't feeling good to me, if something's not landing well in my system, sometimes I have a part that doesn't trust that and thinks that I, you know, I must be being too sensitive. I must be being difficult.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And that silences me.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, because I know we need to finish, but because there are these layers, these layers of power and control, of oppression, systemically, in so many systems, and now, which I didn't mention in the podcast discussion before, we've found the judicial system is now, obviously that's part of the societal system, but it's a very powerful one.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Is there anything else before we finish this add-on? Anything else that feels important?
SPEAKER_02:I don't think so. And, you know, yeah, I just wanted to really appreciate you again and for holding this space and for allowing me to use my voice in this way. And, yeah, I mean, it feels like a really important conversation. I'm really grateful to have been able to have it with you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, me too. I really appreciate you. And I'm so grateful and honoured that you felt able to share and really vulnerably at times as well. So really, really appreciate that. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you for listening to The Validation Lounge. All parts are welcome.
UNKNOWN:Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:I'll attach to the podcast notes information for how to get in touch with my podcast guests and also their social media to see what they're up to. There's also a glossary of IFS terms from the IFS Institute. And please do rate and review the podcast if you can. And finally, if you'd like to get in touch with me to give me some feedback, I'd be really grateful. I'll also attach my personal website.
